Skylar bought a friend a snack the other day. When the child’s mother noticed, she very condescendingly asked him, “Did you use your manners?” Three times, no less. How horribly embarrassing for him. To not only, have to submit to his mother right there and then, but to his friend.
Consider this, a child says “Mom, can I have some milk?”. Like a broken record in my mind I can hear a parent saying, “What’s the magic word?”. The child says “pweeeeez” and he gets some milk. Please is *not* a magic word. It’s no more a magic word than Abracadabra or A La Peanut Butter Sandwiches. (I know some might disagree, but stick with me here) Eventually, they will know it’s not magic and that it’s a lie. It’s not going to get them what they want every time no matter how sweetly they say it. It’s a lie, children know it, and they are going to get out of saying please whenever they can.
Please is a natural word. I use it in many different ways. “Do you want rainbow sprinkles on your ice cream?” I might say, “Yes! Please!”, to show my excitement. If TJ is really busy but, I really need his help, I might ask “Would you help me lift this box, please?” I might even use it to show my seriousness about the matter. “I do not want the dog on the couch. Please… don’t let him up there”. Or, if someone is bullshitting me, I could always say, “Oh please!” I think please should come as easy as any other expression in the English language. It shouldn’t be a special word saved for special occasions or for submitting to adults. If I asked you for something to drink, would you *dare* look at me, and say “What’s the magic word?”
A favorite story I like to share is from one of Skylar’s wrestling tournaments. They are a bit crazy and require a lot of forethought for entertaining the littles. Skylar was on deck, and Shane (my brother) had just shown up with his girlfriend at the time. Milo stayed with her while I went to film Skylar’s match. Milo said, “I want banana chips.” Unfamiliar with unschooling and our family, she replied, “Can you ask me nicely?” Milo replied with his hands up and shrugged shoulders, “I want banana chips?”. His tone reflected that he was no longer asking for banana chips, he was questioning the question. (We have all shared some giggles over this story!) When children are little we spend a lot of time trying to understand what they are communicating to us. Then, when they can finally communicate with all the proper words, we arbitrarily ask them to use some (non)magic word. Why?
I’m pointing out how ingrained it is, that children are of the lesser value, they must submit, and say the *magic* word or they risk not getting what they want. It’s like asking a dog to sit before giving him a treat. I don’t ask my children to do tricks before I give them a drink, a snack, or a ride to the store. If they *want* milk, I lovingly give them milk, because I am happy to meet their needs. If they want to go to the store for something I lovingly drive them there, for they cannot legally drive themselves. Don’t you know what it’s like to *want* or *need* something you can’t have? It sucks! If I am able to help them get what they want and meet their needs, then I do.
If they are feeling *thankful* for something I have given them or done then they have a right to say thank you, but they also have the right not to say it. If they don’t want to, I don’t mind. It’s not even that I don’t mind, it just doesn’t even cross my mind that they should, because if they aren’t feeling thankful then they shouldn’t say thank you. Not even just to be polite. I don’t think it’s healthy to coerce a child into faking their emotions.
I have been uncomfortable for years, saying thank you. I can remember as a child going over and over in my head, whether it was an appropriate time to say thank you or whether I even *had* to. What I didn’t know at the time was, I never *had* to. I was just always made to feel that way. No one really cared whether I actually felt thankful, or whether my actions or other words were showing gratitude. It was all about those words, “thank you”, and whether I said it or not. I even get uncomfortable when someone says thank you, to me. I wonder if I have coerced the thank you in some way or if I haven’t made them feel welcome enough. Should I even *say* “you’re welcome”? My comfort levels are very relaxed now but, I’m 32. I should have been comfortable a long time ago.
It may sound silly to you but, it’s the danger of making your child’s inner voice your own. My inner voice has only begun to be my own, using my own logic, and my own confidence. In earlier years my inner voice was always a smorgasbord of other people’s. I can’t even explain how confusing that is. I hope that my children have their own inner voices and I hope those voices are strong and confident. If they make mistakes, I want them to hear themselves, not me. I am not the leading authority on my children’s minds and bodies. They are. By not giving them my voice, by not requiring manners, by allowing them the use of their own reason, I’m helping (or not getting in the way of) building a foundation underneath them, strong enough to support them through their adult lives. They shouldn’t have to spend any time, fighting off my voice, my unsolicited advice, or my opinions. If they *want* it, they will ask, and they do. If they don’t want it, then they will tell me, and I’ll shut up and butt out.
That is my case against *forced* manners. If my children ask me for a drink in an angry tone, I get them a drink and ask what’s wrong. If they sound urgent, I can get angry, or I can hurry and get them what they need so they can get back to whatever time sensitive activity they were doing. In my house, my kids and their emotions are real and they are cared about much, much more than being polite and using their manners.
Update:
I have gone back and changed a bit a wording. It seems that a lot of people are misunderstanding the message here. I am NOT rejecting the idea of being polite or being gracious. I’m rejecting the idea of forcing children to be that way. I’m rejecting the ideas of “magic words” and “forced manners” only being robotic pleases and thank yous. My oldest child is so polite and so gracious and so giving. I don’t require him to be that way. He does it because he it feels right to him. He sees his parents being that way and we know it’s important to give children societal expectations. However, we allow them to respond freely. There is also a lot of discussion in our home about situations and social cues.
Later in the day, after I heard the story about Milo I let him know, “She wanted you to say please”. He wasn’t rude in the way he asked, and neither was she. At age (barely) 4, he didn’t understand what she was looking for. I gave him the information he needed to address the situation next time. Being an unschooler is NOT an excuse for rudeness. However, being a parent is not an excuse for rudeness either and I feel that the traditional way of requiring *manners* is also quite rude.
I hope this addition to this post is helpful. I’m *really* appreciating the comments and discussion. If this post keeps being misunderstood, I may just take it down. I’m not ok with my readers thinking that I’m approving of rudeness, especially on the grounds of being an unschooler.
can you adopt me? i'm house broken, but don't always use utensils to eat with…
I agree 100% with everything in this post & try very hard to explain it to so many for such a long time. I'll be sharing this post if that's alright with you.
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Sure I'll adopt you. Isn't Seattle where your husband is from anyway?
Please share.
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Thanks! No, he's not *from* there, but lived there for about 2 years & would love to move back. He says, "has she eaten at 13 coins yet?"
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Nope. Where is it? Let him know we are in West Seattle. Venturing into the metro area is a while other ball game. LOL
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http://www.13coins.com/
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Looks DELICIOUS! Next date night we'll have to check it out!
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all I'm saying is 5star food 24hrs a day…
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After the Facebook discussion I'm feeling like there is so much more I want to say here. I wish the discussion was over here. It's a good discussion that other readers are totally missing.
I'm thinking I should have added that if someone is mean and rude than I also have the right to say "No. I'm not going to get you a drink. KWIM". Most of this was directed toward young children though.
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I agree with it generally, but this:
"By not giving them my voice, by not requiring manners…"
Everyone has manners; some people's manner is very harsh or rude. Expressions of gratitude shouldn't be "thanks"–they can be more real and in a person's own words. Same as "please." If people don't even know what it means, they're just being parrots. But most people don't care about words and what they mean, which is fine.
Some people don't have natural ease with other people, and coaching isn't necessarily a bad thing. If a child is engaging and thoughtful, just anyone will get him a drink of water. If a child is pushy and ungrateful, his life won't be as happy or easy.
To reject the idea of courtesies entirely is as bad as requiring a script. And if a child feels he has no need to be courteous because he's an unschooler, that can do harm to his life and also that of other unschoolers.
I agree what the other mom did was odious. Going too far the other direction might be too.
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Does it seem like I'm rejecting courtesies? I'm not! Really! I feel a part 2 coming on. I even had a few people read this before posting to make sure I was clear. They are so fired! Actually, that upsets me some, because Frank seemed to misunderstand too.
My rejection is of *forced* manners. Not of "politeness or graciousness".
I do help them with social cues. I do use *manners* although I hesitate to use the word because it seems so negative to me. When someone does something nice I have said "thank you" for them or reminded them it would be nice to say thanks. They are small. Skylar (11) is really gracious and polite. Because I don't *require* him to be that way. He see's me being that way and I have offered up information on societal expectations.
I should take this down and rewrite shouldn't I? Damn.
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No, Heather, please leave it! Joyce did a really cool presentation the other day about how different people interpret different words and directions. This is just one of those kinds of things.
My fear is not that your children won't be polite. It's that other moms will come here and read what you wrote and think "Damned straight; I'll NEVER suggest ANY words to my children lest they not be their 'authentic selves'" or some such and that because of something they misunderstood they'll totally revel in their children's tacky rudeness.
"Use manners" is a lame term. They mean did you remember to employ your best mannerisms, but it shortens down to nonsense. Maybe "courtesy" or "etiquette" is a better thought than "manners."
Please don't take it down!
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Thanks. I *did* add an update. When people started misunderstanding my fear became the same as yours. So I felt I need to explain a little. Like I said in the end of the update…
"'m not ok with my readers thinking that I'm approving of rudeness, especially on the grounds of being an unschooler. "
I appreciate your comments.
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I didn't read your first post, but I understood the meaning of your edited version.
Zeb and I have talked about who we know that appreciates things like "please" and "thank you". And he doesn't mind when those people request it from him, since he knows it's just "their thing", as well as a cultural thing.
But I certainly agree how humiliating it is to feel forced into submission. We just watched a movie (Blindness) in which a man with a gun forced a man at gunpoint to say "thank you". The whole scene was about submission and shows really well how humiliating it can be. On the other hand, it can also be a form of gratitude or a gift of words to some, all depending on the context and the emotion behind it.
What really gets me is when a child is *obviously* thankful and excited about a gift, saying things like 'it's so awesome; I can't believe you got this for me' and then someone steps in and tells them to "say thank you". Wha?? Those empty words they were forced to spit out in no way take the place of (and sometimes completely wipe off) the sheer excitement on their face.
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Excellent post! I couldn't agree with you more and I couldn't have worded it more eloquently. You are right on the money when you say it is not "healthy to coerce our children into faking their emotions!"
Our librarian asks my kids if they would like a stamp on their hands. They say yes, Then she asks them what the "magic word is"!? My son replied…."ummmm abracadabra?" She said "No! It is please" to which I laughed my butt off, because the magic word IS abracadabra, so she was wrong!
This kind of situation frustrates my husband, me and my kids (who feel like they are being talked to like babies)
Why would any grown up ask if a child wants something, then essentially make them beg for it!?
Your kids are growing up with the ability to listen to their inner voice, not someone elses, and that is the greatest gift you could ever give them.
Sorry you are being misunderstood.
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Having read this, though only post-update, I hope you won't delete it. My son is 16 months and my mom has recently taught him to say please when he wants something. Now I'm examining how I feel about that a little more closely. I also appreciate your remark about your inner voice and how it wasn't always your own. I am finding, also in my early 30s, that this applies to me as well. I think what you've written here is good food for thought, even for readers who may disagree, provided they can at least see outside their own box. Even readers who disagree totally probably won't be able to help looking a bit differently at this kind of parent-child interaction the next time they see it.
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My 2 Cents….
I wholly agree with the need for being polite. And for teaching our children to be polite. Also that abracadabra is a far more magical word. Please comes from a royal command "please me" it was not supposed to be polite it was supposed to be done "NOW". Politeness or the lack of is in our thoughts and actions and not so much in the archaic teminology. So, PLEASE do what you feel is right and the rest should work out just fine.
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"Please" is short for "if it please you." It was a way to make a request of a superior. In French they still use the whole phrase "s'il vous plait." Kings wouldn't say "please." They could say "you shall," even though by the 20th century before "shall" died out, it was considered only useable by first person ("I shall").
Too much history.
Actual, thoughtful words always trump a vanilla "please" for me, and my kids have picked up on that too, in their lives. "This is beautiful!" when someone gives you something is nicer than "thanks." But then it depends on the tone of voice and all.
Using language to express feelings in original ways is rare sometimes.
I hope the not being able to see outside one's own box wasn't a dig at me. My concern went beyond my own life and Heather's to the ways the ideas expressed could be misunderstood and misused by those new to unschooling. Some parenting decisions are difficult to take back.
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This blog reminds me of 2 books: The Four Agreements and A New Earth. What you're saying is very insightful. Both books talk about how the self of a person gets muddied by the demands and opinions of people around them. What you're saying about not manipulating children the be polite is so important because it's the very tip of the iceburg of maintaining free-thinking.
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To clarify here, I agree with you completely that forcing manners is a Bad Thing and forced/false "manners" can, indeed, be worse than no "manners" at all. My demurral was from inside my own head because, as I said, I do belive that showing manners (politeness) is vital to social intercourse and I struggle with my own shit when my kids don't use the exact same set of "manners" I have in my own pointy little head. That's *my* internal shit, not theirs. Or yours.
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Such a timely post! My girlfriend and her son had a very traumatic experience at the dentist today. Her son, who was getting his tooth extracted, badly wanted some water and they made him say please in order to get it!? Saying please is not about respect, it's about lording your grown up power over a younger person! At least in this case.
I've forwarded this post to my friend, I think she will find it timely and helpful.
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http://mylifeisaverage.com/s/570220
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Tara – Definitely! I know that I've had discussions with the kids about how *my* grandparents in particular like pleases and thank yous.
Charity – Sometimes things don't feel right. Go with your gut. Teaching him to say please isn't a bad thing, but using it as leverage is something I couldn't get on board with.
Sandra – Love the history of words! Especially when the original meaning has changed vastly from the present. Makes for great conversation!
Natalie – I'd love to check our one or more of those books. Someone please help me find time to read! Maybe when I'm done with New Moon. Edward? or Jacob? I can't decide! *snicker*
Sam – I'm glad it's helpful. It's certainly a different take on the norm. Unschooling is REALLY bizarre to some people, but I feel that peaceful parenting is something that should be spread far and wide.
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Ronnie how on earth did you find that? So funny. Proves a point though doesn't it!?
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@Sam..thats exactly what i find wrong with the whole "mind your manners" argument…its as if we adults need kids to BEG for something. I dont coerce my children to say please and thank you (but Ethan, my 4 year old, uses teh word often…b/c we model it often) BUT i have never put my finger on what is sooo bad about it. Now i have! thank you, sincerely,
rachel
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I am jumping in here late, but I think the situation you described may have been as much about the TONE that was used as much as the actual WORDS. I have heard that horrible TONE with the 'Did you say thank you blah blah blah.." and it makes me cringe. It is almost as annoying as the christmas cards I got this year with the miserable kids propped up on display for I don't know who's benefit. Sit here, smile, wear this, don't move, look happy. Oh I have wandered off topic!
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Not really off topic. Much of this can be a parents struggle to maintain a certain "family image".
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I love your post and phooey if people don't like it!
I love what someone said once (I think it was Jon Kream or Kelly Lovejoy) that "parents are very rude when they try to teach manners.";)
Keep on writing girl!
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Thanks! I have to admit I miss seeing Jon Kream's worldly insight everyday!
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I have to admit, I did read the post wrong the first time. I felt that it was saying that suggesting any sort of politeness messes with authenticity.
I understand we will all read things differently due to whatever baggage we might have.
My baggage is from when I started out down our Unschooling path, I erred on the side of allowing my child to act any way she wanted and felt that others needed to basically bow to her demands. So, I knew, if I had read that 5 or 6 years ago I would have totally felt agreed with.
I'm glad you clarified and hopefully I didn't offend anyone by my not understanding!
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Hey, sorry it doesn't show my name. Obviously, I don't comment on blogs often, LOL. I updated my name on my blogger, but, it didn't change here like I thought it would. I'm hoping this new post shows who I am!
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Oh good! I'm so glad I updated then! It's the last message I wanted to send.
I think we all have "If I knew then, what I knew now…" thoughts. We all began this journey differently, for different reasons, and with different interpretations.
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Yes, exactly. All I knew when I started out was that I wanted my children to be free. I didn't want them to be treated crappy like I was. So, I went faaar the other way, protecting my child from any treatment that I deemed unfair in any way. Of course, not realizing it was unfair to others! Sandra helped me out with that and helped me realize I wasn't doing my daughter any favors!
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I hope you don’t take it down. I think this is valuable insight. I believe your update at the end clarifies things for those that are completely foreign to this kind idea.
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admin Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Thanks Rose. I’m leaving it right where it is. Too much valuable discussion here to lose!
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It was hard for me to get out of the habit of asking my girls to say “thank you”
I still struggle with it. Wondering if the other person, usually an adult will think we don’t use manners.
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admin Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
Darcel – There are times where it might be appropriate in a way. There are times where I might privately inform my kids, “Hey, she would probably really like it if you said thank you”. Or something like that. A suggestion without an expectation.
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link to some of the discussion on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/michele.jamesparham?v=feed&story_fbid=249487101511 Let me know if that works for other people or just me.
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admin Reply:
January 18th, 2010 at 11:48 pm
Seems to work fine for me.
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Kudos. My mother never made me say please and thank you. She said by doing that she was instilling a sense of insincerity. We also do NOT require are children to say “I’m sorry” for the very same reason. What if they’re not? That’s lying. What’s worse?
Instead, if they have done something wrong, that’s what they say. “Brandon, I was wrong for using my newly acquired wrestling skills on you.” *grin* Now, if he should feel sorry for his actions, he can freely say sorry.
My husband doesn’t subscribe to this school of thought or the other one I have about favors. He thinks favors are more like contracts and needs to be quid pro quo. But, he’s still in a training phase
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This is awesome. Thank you for writing it. Please don’t take it down… I will like to come back here once in a while to remind myself that I’m not the only one who believes this!
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Wow. PLEASE don’t take this down!
For a long time, I’ve felt uncomfortable with the rote demanding of please & thank you . . . but haven’t been sure what else to do. Even though I firmly believe in the ability of children to learn what they need, when they need it, and much of it from the examples of the adults around them, this aspect hadn’t made it through my scripting yet. Fear kept pushing back the gut feeling that I should do exactly as you do, not sure what would happen. Fear has been my biggest enemy as a parent . . . especially because I’ve stepped completely outside of the way I was raised in so many ways (both by my parents and by the school system).
This post shows clearly and plainly that the standard of politeness for children is the same for adults . . . and as it’s patently ridiculous to demand my husband or friend to “say please . . . “, it’s just as ridiculous to require my children to do so, as well.
There will always be readers who misunderstand–whether willfully or no–and it’s often misunderstandings that bring out the best opportunities for learning. The note you added at the end of this post had one of the most valuable bits for me: how you helped Milo understand what Shane’s girlfriend expected, giving him tools to handle such a situation in the future.
Thank you for taking the time to write this. I really appreciate it.
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Heather Reply:
March 18th, 2010 at 8:43 am
Thanks for the comment. Sometimes writing is my way of solidifying how I feel. This was a touchy topic for me which may be why I was feeling so sensitive to being misunderstood.
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[...] with permission, original posted here on Jan. 13, 2010 Share [...]
I don’t know if this has been said but:
“Please, please, PLEASE, PLEEEEEEEEEEEASE! Please, I said please!”
I love your article, don’t take it down it doesn’t come across wrong at all!
My eldest though saying it without me ever mentioning it because at that point she wasn’t saying much so we were surprised that she just started. They’re naturally polite girls, without being prompted they rarely forget and I haven’t ever really pushed them.
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Heather Reply:
March 14th, 2011 at 6:57 am
Thank you for the kind words.
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