We returned from the UWWG (Unschooler’s Winter Waterpark Gathering) yesterday. A fabulous time was had by all and many, many thanks to all the organizers! While, most unschooling conferences are smaller, and are geared toward unschoolers and the unschooling interested, the UWWG is a bit different since it’s open for homeschoolers to unschoolers and everything in between, so long as you take a child-led non-schooly approach or are interested in leaning that way.
TJ and I had a lot of fun speaking together. I can’t think of anyone else I would rather share the stage with! I felt that our talk went well. It was well attended too. I remember looking around the room thinking to myself… “Wow… there’s a lot of people here, I hope we say something good!” I felt so at ease speaking this time, of course I always feel at ease with TJ at my side. I think the last time I spoke I really built up the fear and drove myself nuts. I won’t do that again! When we finished, I glanced down at my phone to check the time. Only 30 minutes had passed! Tj and I had microphones, were talking together, and about unschooling and we had only used up 30 minutes. How on earth did that even happen??? I swear our talk was much longer. As inexperienced speakers, we didn’t quite understand the importance of making sure we filled up the time slot.
Tj opened up the floor to questions. Someone wanted advice on how to be a better mom when it feels like your energy has run out. Someone else wanted assurance that her children would grow to be functional adults. It seems to me that when people are in the beginning of unschooling they get hung up on things likes college, household chores or bedtime. Every unschooling talk ends up with one of these types of questions. It’s not what our presentation was about, but are hot button issues. As an inexperienced speaker I had a little trouble keeping the discussion on topic and away from becoming an argument. Things got a little tense and some became defensive over their lifestyle choices. I was a little disappointed about this. I really enjoyed sharing our story and loved talking about unschooling and I was so hoping that everyone would leave inspired, not defensive. In the end I received some really good feedback at the conference or through email about our talk and people really did enjoy it. Dayna Martin wrote a nice email reminding me, “Ya, the talk got intense, but it is through those moments of intensity that new ideas are embraced. It was through the seemingly negative responses that others were able to really elaborate on Unschooling philosophy! People learned so much from your talk! Frustration and and anger is sometimes part of the process for many people learning alternatives.” Ahh… just what I needed to hear.
This bit of discussion has had me thinking about the difference between Unschooling and Radical Unschooling. I think many people view Unschooling as a lack of curriculum and Radical Unschooling as applying the philosophy to their whole lives. While I love the term Radical Unschooling, I personally do not view it any differently than just Unschooling. There is NO difference. It doesn’t happen all at once for everyone, some take longer than others to get there, and that is OK. I think the general rule of thumb is take one month for every year you spent in school to truly deschool yourself. Someone accused me of being judgmental for pointing out what wasn’t unschooling, when I felt I was simply being informative.
First of all, it’s perfectly OK to not be an Unschooler. Some people seem to view Unschooling as a secret little, elitist club and get awfully defensive. There is nothing wrong with being an eclectic homeschooler or a relaxed homeschooler. Unschooling is still extremely controversial, when we start having all these different levels of Uschooling it sort of muddies up the label and becomes extremely unclear to those who would like to learn or observe.
In my opinion, it is not going to be successful to compartmentalize Unschooling. It’s a lifestyle. Unschoolers live in freedom, they learn everyday, from everything. Their world is limitless, and there are no subjects or rules. The world is full of connections, not separations. Yet when we as parents, impose rules on the lives of our “Unschooled” children we are disengaging life from learning. We are telling them that even though we believe they can learn what they need to know, that ultimately they cannot decide when they are tired, or hungry, or ready to help pick up the house. Unschooling isn’t going to work if the illusion of control is maintained over our children.
I truly believe that Unschooling will not work if not used as a whole life philosophy. So, what do you think? Am I too late to the party? Has the labels Unschooling and Radical Unschooling already become separate? Or should we maintain that they are one in the same? Pass this on, I want to hear your thoughts.
Very interesting, thank you for sharing your thoughts! I do tend to think of unschooling and radical unschooling as two distinct things, since I know unschoolers who are still very controlling in many aspects of their children’s lives, but I suppose it could also be looked at as a continuum: a steady move toward less control and more freedom in life… Definitely something to think about.
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In most circles, I only use the term Unschooling because Radical has a way of turning people off but I am RU through and through. I view RU as AP and Unschooling mixed together and it flows throughout our lives in that way. There is a separation between just Unschooling (no forced curriculum) and RU (whole life unschooling with no coercion, period). I don’t know if it’s a good or bad thing. The waters get awful muddy with people claiming that Unschooling can’t be defined in definite terms. They claim that so that they can go on living their way and claim the Unschooling label at the same time.
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Just my nature, but I like any label with “radical” in the term
I think you just have to feel up your audience (did I just say that?!). I use the term “unschooler” in most day-to-day conversations, and that usually works just fine…but if I then have to hear about bedtimes and food control and TV and “we unschool except that I require them to read for an hour a day, and do a page of math”, then I separate myself from what *they* obviously think unschooling is by throwing in the R word
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LOL – there are many more segmentations and labels than just those two! And I expect that, people being people (and having gone to school where we learned segmentation and labeling), there will be even more as time goes on. Those who use the words to create “secret, elitist clubs,” probably haven’t totally deschooled themselves yet.
I believe that the style of living and learning we are talking about is all about non-coercion, whatever you want to call it. But until we can do a Star Trek-style “mind meld,” we’re going to have to use words to describe this style of livi and learning. So I just hope we can all learn to use those words inclusively, rather than exclusively.
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>>>They claim that so that they can go on living their way and claim the Unschooling label at the same time.<<<…. as if it's some elite group that they must be a part of to be cool or something. Like you said, it's ok to NOT be an unschooler.
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This is so tricky! I just deleted my first attempt at a comment b/c I wasn’t comfortable with how it came across.
Bottom line: labels don’t work.
You can’t tell someone they are an x if they think they are a y.
I am in no way saying this is what you are doing, but rather responding to my own experience of trying to answer this question. I found myself full of judgments of people I know who use these different labels.
On another note congratulations on giving your talk! It must have been exciting! I’m glad Dayna had some wise words to help you soothe the experience.
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Let me preface my comment with this disclaimer. I’m not an unschooler, but neither am I antagonistic towards unschoolers.
I find that the term radical unschooler is used most often when an unschooler wants to distance themselves from another unschooler. I.E. Unschool Mom #1 wants to put distance between her and Unschool Mom #2 whose daughter is 12 and still struggling to read.
Because unschoolers pride themselves in being flexible, they haven’t really well-defined the terms they use even to refer to themselves which is bound to cause some confusion for the rest of us.
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I’m with Dana on this one
I have written about this before… We unschool BUT just isn’t unschooling. I don’t know why people who aren’t doing it want to use the label. We live and learn as if school didn’t exist. We respect and trust our kids. We are partners in this journey with them, not authority or adversaries.
So yeah, radical unschooling AKA whole life unschooling is true unschooling. It’s the different degrees that have made it necessary to quantify.
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>>>I find that the term radical unschooler is used most often when an unschooler wants to distance themselves from another unschooler. I.E. Unschool Mom #1 wants to put distance between her and Unschool Mom #2 whose daughter is 12 and still struggling to read.<<<
I haven't found that at all. I don't want to distance myself at all from the people that I can help the most. The term RU is used most often when we want to define what true unschooling is… like what Stephanie said above.
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It seems to me that for most, “unschooling” is an umbrella term that covers the whole spectrum, and in most cases is all the label that is needed, since unschooling is already often a foreign concept to many. For those more familiar, to say unschooling refers only or primarily academics – schoolwork – and “Radical Unschooling” means that person applies that philosophy to all aspects of parenting, including bedtimes, meals, media exposure, and morals/ethics.
It is rather like the difference between assisted homebirth and unassisted homebirth (another topic which causes lots of debate and confusion when people start questioning “just what makes a birth assisted?” and people who want to claim the label even though their concept of “unassisted” is not the same as someone else’s — and the term becomes so muddied and meaningless that it could be extended to even include some hospital births with an OB. It loses clarity and meaning, and while it is more than okay for a woman to choose a hospital birth with an OB if that is her desire or need, to then try to claim that it was somehow a UC completely misses the reasons for choosing a hospital birth, and the essence of what UC is — which is a long and rambling way of saying that sometimes when phrases and concepts become more generally known and accepted (even if still “fringe”) then there can be a loss of clarity as to what that phrase meant in the first place, before a large number of enthusiastic and idealistic people slapped on the bumper sticker without necessarily embracing the paradigm first.
I think that when that happens, it’s sometimes important to counter the confusion in some way, and adding the “Radical” to differentiate between two fundamental lifestyles/philosophies that fall under the same general label is possibly necessary at this point. In the future there may be many more subsets to the “unschooling” umbrella, and I don’t know that that’s a bad thing if as things change over the years it contributes to clarity and facilitates communication. It might be ideal for unschooling to mean one thing to everyone (even thought naturally it would look different for each family!) but if the reality is something else, then going with that flow and making it work for the better is positive.
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Nice one, Colleen.
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Hi Heather! This is how I’ve come to think about it… for the uninitiated, unschooling refers to the part of radical unschooling that addresses the school part of the equation (explanation coming!). Radical then refers to extending those principles to the rest of life. To someone who already lives the unschooling life, there’s no separation – one doesn’t separate learning from any other part of life (and they therefore can be radical or not, it won’t matter). To someone who is new to the concepts or is coming at it from a point of view of just now realizing there are alternatives to school (such as a mom of a young child who begins to realize they don’t want to do a schooly lifestyle), it’s a way of indicating how far in to the process someone has gone. This has been my take on it as I try to answer questions posed by friends or family members trying to figure out just what it is we’re doing over here.
PS We miss you here in Rutland.
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Briefly, people who self-label as “unschoolers” sometimes do so only in the context of curriculum vs. no curriculum. They still control food, bedtime, behavior, etc. People who self-label as “radilcal unschoolers” embrace the philosophy as a weltanschauung.
Labels are labels. Sometimes they’re useful, sometimes they’re misleading, sometimes they’re accurate, and sometimes they’re not. In a brief discussion, they’re all we have to go by. Nobody wants to take the time to write/deliver a disseration-length apologia on their specific ideation of “unschooling” so confusion and conflict sometimes ensue. I mostly try to spend my time simply living my life the way I wanna live it rather than wasting time in discussion which degenerates into argument. However, I believe TJ once said something like: If you come to a vegan discussion and talk about which meat you like best, you’re gonna generate *pointed* discussion.
I admit that if you come to me and wanna talk about how you “unschool” timeouts, required bedtimes, etc. I may indeed take a little time to discuss your delusions about your soi-disant “unschooling.”
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I agree with Colleen, I think, but I have an example.
The answer to the question “Where do you live” doesn’t seem like an “it depends” answer, usually (for families in RVs it does, unless they say “In the RV”).
I’ve been in the same house over twelve years and was in another house four miles from here for twelve years+ before that. But what I say about where I live will depend on my relationship geographically to the person I’m talking to. “By Sandia Bowl” is the best possible information for people who’ve lived in Albuquerque a long time. When I was in Wales I’d say “The U.S.” and that might be enough. If they wanted more, I’d say “New Mexico.” If I’m in Albuquerque and someone asks me where I live, “The U.S. is somewhere between worthless and rude.
When strangers asked why a little kid wasn’t in school, I’d say “They don’t go to school” or “We homeschool.” When other homeschoolers wanted to ask me about a curriculum, I’d say “We’re unschoolers.” Within a discussion of unschooling is the only real time the term “radical unschooler” needs to be used.
I agree with Heather that unschooling doesn’t work very well when the parents are telling the kids what to eat and when and how, and then to go to sleep by the clock. FOR US, the way we unschooled, that was never part of it. When people asked what we did about bedtimes, I said we let the kids fall asleep when and where they wanted to, and then we put them in the bed. When they asked how we made them eat, I said we didn’t make them eat. That was before we were even unschooling/homeschooling/whatever.
I know the difference between adverbs and adverbial phrases, but I don’t go around talking about it. The closest I’ll ever get to discussing that might be to say “modifiers.” It’s irritating to speak jargon when people aren’t in the depths of a topic. Just because someone doesn’t use all the words they know doesn’t mean they don’t know more words.
“Radical unschooling” is useful when people want to discuss the inner workings of how unschooling can work, and how far unschooling can go and what’s keeping their unschooling from really taking solid hold. Otherwise, unschooling covers a broad range of non-curriculum life.
It has been a long long time since the terms “eclectic” for (unschooling and also doing some curriculum/unit studies) and “radical unschooling” came along to help solve arguments in the new unschooling discussions on AOL, years ago. They didn’t evolve to cause arguments, but to help stop them.
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I think technically speaking, unschooling and radical unschooling are the same thing. Unschooling is a philosophy. It is a way of thinking about life.
But we live real life in a world of people, not philosophies. Unless everyone we encounter and everyone we are in relationship with also ascribes to the philosophy of unschooling, it can be extremely difficult to live it 100%. Many of us have spouses, ex-spouses, or other close family members who have not embraced unschooling. When the reality of relationship bumps up against the philosophy of unschooling, we must punt – we adopt some practices and set others aside. I think this accounts for much of the distinction between unschooling and radical unschooling.
Also, for those of us who grew up embracing a different philosophy of education, it can take time to replace old ideas with new ones. I think it is possible to completely embrace a new idea intellectually, but putting it into actual practice takes time. As we replace our old ideas and practices with new ones, I think we get closer and closer to radical unschooling.
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My innate impulse it to be diplomatic and so I rarely, RARELY, use the words Radical Unschooling in mixed company. I eagerly use the term when I’m among radical unschoolers (or those seeking to be) because it easily sums up what I’m striving for, it’s relevant, applicable, useful. Sandra (of course!!) said it best above.
Incidentally, I have an unschooling friend who bristles whenever I use the term radical unschooling. She sees no use in such separatist language, but she also doesn’t read the lists, or read the new books; she’s called herself an unschooler (as she understands it) for 15 yrs and is satisfied with what that term conveys to others (and uses it quite freely in mixed company). Today, however, I was finally able to articulate to her why I *sometimes* need to add the word radical to the word unschooling. I was telling her about the UWWG, and my talks, and all manner of things, and because the UWWG list is currently deep in this discussion, I explained that it’s especially useful to say radical unschooling when someone who’s kept strict bedtimes, and controlled food, and “unschooled everything but math” say, “Oh, I tried unschooling for a few months and it didn’t work.” I said I don’t use to term to separate just for the sake of separating, but to help people understand that I truly believe that in order for unschooling to ‘work’ you can’t pick and choose parts of it, because if your kids never get to recover from control and be truly free, that push-and-pull relationship will never heal, go away, get better. Then folks blame the unschooling that “didn’t work.” I believe it’s a shame then to let it stand as such, and when people at conferences ask questions and come to learn about unschooling, it’s a necessary explanation. My friend looked at me and said, “Oh – I get that now.”
My 13 yr old just called up from the kitchen asking if he could make a grilled cheese and tomato soup – even though I don’t require or expect him to ask before he makes food. He then brought a sandwich and bowl of soup to me – even though I didn’t ask him to. Then he offered to make the same for his dad – even though he didn’t ask either. All before he made his own soup and sandwich.
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When you find yourself sitting alone at the kitchen table with a couple of workbooks while your kids are running as far and as fast as possible in ANY direction other than the one you have planned, you look in the mirror and say “I guess we are unschoolers now”. When you tuck your 8 year old into bed (who is in PJ’s b/c he never got out of them today) with a sleeve of Thin Mint girl scout cookies while your 9 year old is helping himself to dinner of cereal while playing a MMPOG (did I get that right?) and your husband has been asleep for an hour and you are thinking about what new yahoo group you could start, you are a Radical Unschooler. The first happens in an instant; the later takes a little time to ease into. In both instances, you feel joy.
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Heather Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 7:37 pm
Andrea – I love that!
I’ve finally read through all these great comments. I don’t know that I can disagree with any of them. We all have our own variations on how or when, and why or why not we choose to use the terms. It’s a bit sticky. I know preserving a label is so important to so many people. The only thing I can compare it to, is when some took Vegetarianism a step further and adopted the label of Vegan. It’s what it feels like to me. It might be a necessary deviation as the movement grows.
One reason for my concern is that I was told by someone that I was judgmental for saying something wasn’t unschooling. It had something to do with household chores. Technically, she was right, I made a judgment. But not in the sense she meant it. I am so passionate about unschooling, writing about it, and now speaking about it that I felt a need to explore this issue. Obviously I can’t be all things to all people, but being called judgmental made me think a bit about how I was using the terms.
Thanks so much for all these awesome comments! It really is good stuff you’ve all written. And you know, I just love the word Radical in general. It’s just so… totally Radical.
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I am really enjoying everyone’s opinions.
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Love all these comments! I *think* I agree that unschooling is the umbrella over the spectrum of what this lifestyle actually looks like.
I also think some people are working *toward* unschooling and possibly take offense when they feel others are telling them they aren’t doing it right yet. I happen to know a few vegans who will occasionally admit to missing bacon or a meat eater slowly giving up meat but struggling with it.
There will likely always be confusion. Out of that can come some pretty cool stuff. Sometimes some not so cool stuff too. Such is life. The best we can do is try to offer acceptance and understanding and love as much as possible and enjoy what *is* the rest of the time.
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Heather, I really did not hear that comment that someone was not unschooling as a judgement! More a clarification, it was helpful. Your talk was great, you are one of the unschoolers I aspire to be more like!!
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Heather Reply:
February 15th, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Thanks Cara! I love your beautiful family! It was something someone said in a one on one conversation. I didn’t take it personally or even as if she was being rude. It just made me think… a lot. Thanks for your kind words!
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I absolutely agree with you and think you put it well!
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Hi Heather. Again, I think your talk was great–and look it’s still going on and generating lots of really good discussions and conversations.
I do think there is a difference between radical unschooling and plain old unschooling but I also think that those that radically unschool get it—that it is all encompassing and either you do it or you don’t. That it is not something you do just a little bit, it is a whole lifestyle. Maybe once you are there (at the radical whole life unschooling point) you understand and see that it is all encompassing and so get that you are either an unschooler or not.
If you’re not “there yet”( RU) and you are still working on lots of control issues than you see a difference between unschooling (doing away w/ the schooley stuff) and radical unschooling (doing away w/ the control stuff.) Does this make any sense?
I am trying to say that unschooling and RU are the same thing once you realize that you can’t do it just a little bit.
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I agree with the way Idzie put it way back in the very first comment–that unschooling is a continuum that includes RU at the one end, and simply not using a curriculum at the other. I think a lot of the communication problems come when someone new to the whole idea doesn’t even realize there IS a continuum. If someone comes to her first conference and has only read, say, The Unschooling Handbook by Mary Griffith, which doesn’t even address the whole-life stuff (the first book I read, btw) she might assume that’s all there is to it, and be completely taken aback by talk of no bedtimes, no chores, etc. I think it can be scary and threatening at first if you haven’t been exposed to the idea of RU yet.
Of course, the longer you unschool, the more you start to question everything and break down the barriers, but it’s kind of an organic process, and not everyone gets it right away. Some will never get it, and some will just always be too scared to take it to the radical level, but if they’re not using a curriculum or coercion in their learning life with their kids, they’re still unschoolers, IMO. They’re just on the conservative end of the continuum.
By the way, Heather, your talk was great, and I had no idea you were an inexperienced speaker. It didn’t show.
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Heather Reply:
February 16th, 2010 at 8:16 am
I like the way you expanded on that thought Denise. It’s so very true. that’s the very first book I read too.
It didn’t even TOUCH on the parenting stuff. And quite possibly it shouldn’t have. It’s fine just the way it is. Thanks!
Thank you for the kind words.
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This was a great post for me to read. I think I’ll call myself a new unschooler for quite some time. I have friends here who say they are unschooling, but then their kids can’t watch too much TV, or they have to get so many of these fruits and veggies a day, or the adults can eat Burger King while the kids sit in the backseat and don’t get to eat it, reason being “they were fed before we left the house & we don’t allow them to eat that junk”
In those times I often wonder how someone can call treating their children that way any sort of unschooling.
I would like to think that for us being unschoolers is radical enough. For now I just tell friends and family we homeschool, if another homeschooler asks what we do, then I say we are unschoolers.
I think we’re slowly making our way around to living it as a whole life philosophy. Step by Step.
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Of course I agree with what Kristen (and others) said because we’re neighbors and we drink the same Kool-Aid.
I’m just so pleased that the discussion is still going on. Loving it.
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I like what Denise wrote. That unschooling handbook was written a long time ago, and came from discussion on the AOL unschooling board, when it was new, and most of the discussion were about academics. Some of the people whose kids are grown or teens now had very young children then and didn’t know how it would evolve and mature if they really committed themselves to unschooling!
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Heather Reply:
February 22nd, 2010 at 3:30 pm
I’ve been rolling this continuum theory around in my head for awhile now. It seems almost impossible for it (unschooling) to *not* evolve.
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